And now, a Star Wars ramble.
Jun. 12th, 2005 06:44 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
cygna_himeBased on the rant going down here, about whether the Jedi are good, evil, or in need of coffee. (Answer: One is always in need of coffee.)
So. The argument against the Jedi is that a)they do lots of unethical things, like various uses of the Jedi Mind Tricks, when there are other options; b)they really act rather dumb and arrogant over the whole prophecy thing; and c)they do things like political assassinations that are exactly the sort of things they're supposed to not have happen. There's also a sidenote about kidnapping midiwhosywhatsis-high babies, but I wouldn't know anything, so innocent until proven guilty and all.
A. As regards the Jedi Mind Trick, yeah, I think it's immoral. Mind control is bad in general. However, it looks to be just a thing Jedi can do. Personally, I'd rather have people be trained not to use it, even if the training doesn't always work, than not trained at all. Jedi probably do end up using it for things they shouldn't, or when there's really another way, but that's the way people are. If you are on a time-critical mission, as so many are, and have a choice between an unethical, quick option and an ethical, slow one, you will probably choose the quick one, even though you know it's wrong. Gut instinct says, "Go with what works," and gut instinct usually wins in an emergency.
One of the best things about the Jedi, from this point of view, is that they're out of the mainstream. You would *not* want to have someone who could use the JMT to get good grades or a better job just out there. The Jedi Order may or may not have done the best possible job of grinding morals into the kids, but at least they keep them out of the way, which is a pretty big something.
B. In the prequel-verse Jedi Order, I see a very common historical problem. Yes, they are arrogant, and at least a little blinded by that. That's what happens in groups whose existence hasn't been threatened for too long. They've gone complacent, since it's been so long since there was a serious threat to the safety of the Order as a whole. Generations of Jedi have grown up never fearing for their safety as a group, and that shows. People don't expect to be ousted. That's what happens with a powerful group. That's how empires fall. They get too used to being the strongest guy around, they don't notice the kid in the corner practicing until he's beaten the crap out of them.
C. That really depends on the moral background of the universe. Me, now, I've spent too much time around Dragaera and the Discworld to expect the Good to be non-violent or whatever. Policial assassinations? Could be business as usual. Do Senators expect to be assassinated? They did in Rome, if they offended the wrong people. I see the Jedi as, actually, pretty good for groups with so much power. They're not totally under the thumb of any political body or group, they're not buyable by any political body, they're not secretly controlling any government, they're not trying to bring any place under their control, they're not trying to purify any race, and they're not pulling innocent people off the street to torture. All in all, that's a pretty good track record.
The Jedi Order of the prequels is old and, like all old beaurocracies, it's stagnating. Maybe some people are getting places they shouldn't be--but at least not everyone is. Maybe some people are going bad--but most people are finding somewhere between perfection and evil to do their jobs in. Maybe the Council is averse to even the concept of change--but some change does happen, all the same. It's not perfect, and it's probably starting to go bad from the inside. But it's not going rotten. That's the way the world works.
I spare a lot of annoyance for Anakin, on various grounds. Someone never read Classical Tragedy for Dummies, especially the bit where it says, "Anything you do to try to avert destiny will just make it happen anyway, only worse, so don't bother." I thought everyone knew that. It's a law of supernature!
I don't think the Jedi are perfect, by any means. They're not. The Order is made up of individuals, none of whom are perfect, because no one is. The Order isn't perfect either. That doesn't mean it's bad. That just means that, like every other organization in the history of any world, ever, it has its good points and its bad points. I think there are more good points than bad, on the whole.
So. The argument against the Jedi is that a)they do lots of unethical things, like various uses of the Jedi Mind Tricks, when there are other options; b)they really act rather dumb and arrogant over the whole prophecy thing; and c)they do things like political assassinations that are exactly the sort of things they're supposed to not have happen. There's also a sidenote about kidnapping midiwhosywhatsis-high babies, but I wouldn't know anything, so innocent until proven guilty and all.
A. As regards the Jedi Mind Trick, yeah, I think it's immoral. Mind control is bad in general. However, it looks to be just a thing Jedi can do. Personally, I'd rather have people be trained not to use it, even if the training doesn't always work, than not trained at all. Jedi probably do end up using it for things they shouldn't, or when there's really another way, but that's the way people are. If you are on a time-critical mission, as so many are, and have a choice between an unethical, quick option and an ethical, slow one, you will probably choose the quick one, even though you know it's wrong. Gut instinct says, "Go with what works," and gut instinct usually wins in an emergency.
One of the best things about the Jedi, from this point of view, is that they're out of the mainstream. You would *not* want to have someone who could use the JMT to get good grades or a better job just out there. The Jedi Order may or may not have done the best possible job of grinding morals into the kids, but at least they keep them out of the way, which is a pretty big something.
B. In the prequel-verse Jedi Order, I see a very common historical problem. Yes, they are arrogant, and at least a little blinded by that. That's what happens in groups whose existence hasn't been threatened for too long. They've gone complacent, since it's been so long since there was a serious threat to the safety of the Order as a whole. Generations of Jedi have grown up never fearing for their safety as a group, and that shows. People don't expect to be ousted. That's what happens with a powerful group. That's how empires fall. They get too used to being the strongest guy around, they don't notice the kid in the corner practicing until he's beaten the crap out of them.
C. That really depends on the moral background of the universe. Me, now, I've spent too much time around Dragaera and the Discworld to expect the Good to be non-violent or whatever. Policial assassinations? Could be business as usual. Do Senators expect to be assassinated? They did in Rome, if they offended the wrong people. I see the Jedi as, actually, pretty good for groups with so much power. They're not totally under the thumb of any political body or group, they're not buyable by any political body, they're not secretly controlling any government, they're not trying to bring any place under their control, they're not trying to purify any race, and they're not pulling innocent people off the street to torture. All in all, that's a pretty good track record.
The Jedi Order of the prequels is old and, like all old beaurocracies, it's stagnating. Maybe some people are getting places they shouldn't be--but at least not everyone is. Maybe some people are going bad--but most people are finding somewhere between perfection and evil to do their jobs in. Maybe the Council is averse to even the concept of change--but some change does happen, all the same. It's not perfect, and it's probably starting to go bad from the inside. But it's not going rotten. That's the way the world works.
I spare a lot of annoyance for Anakin, on various grounds. Someone never read Classical Tragedy for Dummies, especially the bit where it says, "Anything you do to try to avert destiny will just make it happen anyway, only worse, so don't bother." I thought everyone knew that. It's a law of supernature!
I don't think the Jedi are perfect, by any means. They're not. The Order is made up of individuals, none of whom are perfect, because no one is. The Order isn't perfect either. That doesn't mean it's bad. That just means that, like every other organization in the history of any world, ever, it has its good points and its bad points. I think there are more good points than bad, on the whole.
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(no subject)
Date: 2005-06-12 04:55 pm (UTC)*waves*
that cheeseburger, you do not want.
jeez yoda, stealing a man's cheeseburger? what jedi could sink so lo?
(no subject)
Date: 2005-06-12 05:09 pm (UTC)"Anything you do to try to avert destiny will just make it happen anyway, only worse, so don't bother."
One of my main problems with the movie was that they didn't use that to its full potential... I thought we were in for a Greek tragedy when Yoda gave his little speech about being careful with visions, and when Anakin choked Padme, I was *sure* that they'd pull off a pseudo-scientific explanation about how it complicated the pregnancy or something.
But no, she died of a broken heart. Bah. Where's my Greek tragedy?
(no subject)
Date: 2005-06-13 04:35 am (UTC)...That is seriously wrong. It's, like, Rule Two. (Rule One being about never acting incautiously when confronting a little old wrinkly smiling man.) Tragedy laws! Narrativium laws! How can these be defied?
(no subject)
Date: 2005-06-13 01:27 pm (UTC)But we love him, anyway. X3
Seriously, though, I haven't seen this happen only to Jedi. I never got the fuss about poor Dumbledore after book 5.
Fandom: Oh noes, he had His Own Plans! *gasp*
Laurus: ...what, you were expecting anything else?
(no subject)
Date: 2005-06-13 01:39 pm (UTC)So I'm not the only one? I mean, it's like we're supposed to be *surprised* that the characters have conflicting agendas or can do things that, in the future, turn out to have maybe not been the best option. I always think, well, yeah, they're people, not perfect all-knowing beings, but other people don't seem to. It's very odd.
(no subject)
Date: 2005-06-14 08:28 am (UTC)Going from what I know of the SW Extended Universe, the Jedi prequel-era were very much part of the Old Republic (okay, so I'm messing up terms here), maybe not in terms of formal bureaucratic organization, but more in terms of how they think and act. They were sort of like a pseudo-governmental agency, and to most such powerful entities, the path of least resistance is the Machiavellian route.
I suppose some of the confusion is due to the original three movies, which paint the Jedi as all good and shining and bright ("Light" side, "Dark" side), and the Empire (and Sith) as Evil. It doesn't matter what the Empire brought to the galaxy, it has to be Bad. (Low Unemployment turns into Slave Labour, Stability turns into Totalitarian Rule.) It's a very black-and-white view of the world, and the EU writers have tried to either shade a bit of grey into it or reinforce the stark demarcation, leading to a lot of what would probably be termed "fanwanking".
And now Lucas is saying that the Jedi aren't really that good (even though we never see how much Obi-Wan ruins the career and probably life of an innocent trooper with his "These aren't the droids you are looking for"), and people have to rewire their brains. Personally, I want to see him going for balance and saying that the Empire isn't really that bad (even if they completely b0rked the standard Machiavellian methods with their damned Tarkin doctrine), but that's probably a pipe dream.
Anakin was a prodigy, and as such the most dangerous sort of person to train. Using the example of the Jedi Mind Trick, a normal Jedi would generally pick up the technique only after he had learned the discipline needed to know when to use it (read: almost never), but a prodigy may well have the ability but not the wisdom.